In Shakespeare plays 'MacBeth' there is a notorious, fictional character named Lady Macbeth. Who really was Lady MacBeth, though? The real Lady MacBeth was connected weakly to a queen of Scotland figure, Queen Gruoch.
Queen Gruoch was the granddaughter of a former King of Scotland, Kenneth III. With her first husband, Gillecomgain or Gille Coemgáin (it was spelled both ways),they fathered one child, Lulach; he became king later in life for less than a year and was nicknamed “The Fool”. Gillecomgain, however, was killed in a fire accident in 1032. After Gillecomgain died, Queen Gruoch remarried his cousin, MacBeth.
Queen Gruoch was the granddaughter of a former King of Scotland, Kenneth III. With her first husband, Gillecomgain or Gille Coemgáin (it was spelled both ways),they fathered one child, Lulach; he became king later in life for less than a year and was nicknamed “The Fool”. Gillecomgain, however, was killed in a fire accident in 1032. After Gillecomgain died, Queen Gruoch remarried his cousin, MacBeth.
Unlike her cruel character in Shakespeare’s play, Queen Grouch was thought to have been a nice and understanding person. It is even thought that she donated some lands near Loch Leven to the Church.
The imposing questions left are: Why did Shakespeare base his character off Queen Gruoch? Why are the two (Lady MacBeth and Queen Gruoch) so loosely connected?
(Just to let you guys know the first link you provided didn't work for me)
ReplyDeleteLady Macbeth does share some similarities with Queen Grouch. They both use their children/husbands to elevate their statuses in society. Maybe there were some key character traits about Queen Grouch that Shakespeare thought was important to include in Lady Macbeth, after all she was committed to Macbeth, and everything he gained she gained as well. Shakespeare probably thought it wise to have a strong woman behind such a "powerful" man as Macbeth. Many writers base their characters off ones that exist in real life, since Queen Grouch was a significantly powerful queen Shakespeare must have thought that Macbeth's wife should in a way mimic Queen Grouch. However, What was Queen Grouch's and the real Macbeth's relationship like? Was it anything similar to the one between Lady macbeth and macbeth in the play?
I agree with Mary that Shakespeare, like most authors of any time, used this queen as a starting point for his Lady Macbeth. As an author it's great; you keep the traits you like, ditch the ones you don't, and create new ones that make up the character you want to have in your story.
ReplyDeleteI really would like to know, though, like Mary, what was the real relationship between Macbeth and this Queen Grouch?
To me it seems like Lady Macbeth and Queen Gruoch are only similar in that Lady Macbeth was Marred to Macebeth and Queem Gruoch was married (a second time) to King Mac Bethad. Lady Macbeth gets what she wants and will stop at nothing to use the power of her husband to climb the social ladder. I am sure that Queen Gruoch does the same since after her first husband death she went on to marry a king.
ReplyDeleteI think Shakespeare was simply using the same name so as to add a character to his version of history. Queen Gruoch was married to Mac Bethand and Mac Bethand both slew his proposed Halfbrother and King Duncan, and theroetically Lady Gruoch's first husband as well. (I found info on this link). ttp://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Macbeth_of_Scotland
ReplyDeleteTo me the character Lady Macbeth isn't so much based off of her real counterpart, so much as a fictional new character that happens to share the same name so Shakespeare can take some of the evil off of MacBeth's actions and place it somewhere else. I agree with Mary when she says "Shakespeare probably thought it wise to have a strong woman behind such a "powerful" man as Macbeth."
Here is another useful link. http://macbethfordummies.wikispaces.com/Lady+Macbeth?f=print
ReplyDeleteMary asked, “What was Queen Grouch's and the real Macbeth's relationship like? Was it anything similar to the one between Lady Macbeth and Macbeth in the play?” One can only infer whether the two were completely in love and devoted to each other like in the play, but I don’t think they were. One reason being, they didn’t have a child together. It seems odd to me that they only raised Lulach, whose father was Gillecomgain, instead of also having a child of their own. Since Queen Grouch was married before, she could have just remarried to regain “power” again.
I agree with Willy in that Shakespeare probably Used Queen Grouch as a model for Lady Macbeth to take Macbeth's actions and turn them so we can blame the wife. But why would Shakespeare put a woman charater in the play just for her to be the evil and even, possibly Macbeth's courage? It seems a little sexist to me.
ReplyDeleteI can't see many personality similarities between Queen Gruoch and Lady Macbeth. But afer viewing the link Wily provided (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Macbeth_of_Scotland) I can understand the relativity they have to each other. It seems that Queen Gruoch and Lady Macbeth's relation is because of Gruoch's first husband, Mac Bethad mac Findlaich. Apparently Mac Bethad killed his cousin (King Ducan I of Scotland) during battle. Can you see the connection to the play? MAC BETHad killed his cousin Duncan because of his undying lust for the throne.
ReplyDeleteVery clever Shakespeare, very clever..
Anyway, back to Lady Macbeth. It seems that Shakespeare may have added certain traits to the character Lady Macbeth to make a point. He could have been trying to show the affects power can have on a person. In the play, Lady Macbeth is driven by her lust for a power that wouldn't directly affect her- Macbeth has to gain the power of the thrown before Lady Macbeth can gain a fraction of that power.
Emily brings up a good point that Macbeth actually has to gain the power of the throne before any of it can be used/gained by Lady Macbeth. It makes sense. They can plan and plot all they want but ultimately they can't use any other the power they yearn for until they are actually in the role, and throne.
ReplyDeleteIt was really interesting to read and find some more similarities between the play and history. Not necessarily between the queen and lady macbeth, but that the real Macbeth had actually killed his cousin that was king out of lust for the power of the throne. Merissa brings up a good point as to why Shakespeare included a woman character. I think maybe part of it might be partly to aid Macbeth in his quest for power, but also maybe as a reason or scapegoat if things go wrong. The ability to blame things on his wife if others find out that they were really the ones behind the assination of the king. But who really knows why shakespeare did half the things he did.
Merissa, I hadn't thought of Lady Macbeth as Macbeth's courage before yet it makes since. Shakespeare shows Macbeth first as a valiant and notable gentlemen, yet he then wishes to make a murderer out of him. Ergo the need for a change in character, and what better way to sway a man than the addition of a woman? It's a common litererary phenomenon. The addition of a female character changes Harold Hill in the Music Man, and Tramp in Lady and the Tramp, to name a few. Perhaps Lady Macbeth's inclusion isn't to show the sexist belief all women are evil but to show the remarkable sway woman has over man. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteWilly, I definitly see your point with how women change men. While reading the post, I noticed that they both married men in power, which is another similarity between the two. Perhaps she married Macbeth to keep her status? That was a question that popped into my head. To answer the main question, I think that he based her off of Queen Grouch because they were both married to macbeth, and they both had that high status quo that is a big point in Macbeth. However,I do think that there could another side to Queen Grouch that could link them more closely.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Willy's question, I definitely think that Shakespeare was showing the power a woman has, not in the social power structure, but over the men in the structure. It's interesting that in class, we said that in the structure we drew on the board, women are in a different structure and yet still below the men. Perhaps this is how the men wanted it to be and perhaps the women knew that it was them all along that had the real power? I don't think it was a conscious action on the women's part, but I do think that this is a theme that has carried into our time. Men are still on top in most scenarios, but the women in their lives (especially if they're in a relationship) have control over them. This control may not be the control we instinctively think of, but a secret control. Even if a man is abusive, the woman he is abusing has great influence in his life. Interesting to think about.
ReplyDeleteI also would agree with Merissa and Mary. I think that Shakespeare also may be using Lady Macbeth as a sort of scapegoat, but I also think it's so much more than that.
I agree with Julie when she said Queen Guoch and Macbeth didn't really love each other. But even if they didn't love each other, and they were only married because of their thirst for power, why didn't they try to conceive a boy to carry the name to the throne?
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that Lady Macbeth's connection to a real person is any more significant than Duncan or Malcolm or Macbeth's are. Willy's link mentions all of these people in historical context (King Duncan, Malcolm II, and Mac Bethad). Since Shakespeare could not have known these people, their character is at his disretion. He simply had to find a historical point where a ruler died mysteriously and use those names to create his play. Because Macbeth made it into the play it was only natural that his wife would as well. The character traits that make her a significant character have no historical basis.
ReplyDeleteWilly I would have to agree that Lady Macbeth inclusion has nothing to do with the sexist belief, it really just shows how much women can sway men with suduction, manipulation, or in Lady Macbeth's case courage. I mean come on she convinced Macbeth to kill a man, a king!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Willy and his idea of Lady Macbeth. It makes sense to me that the exsistance of her role in the play is to "sway" the honroable and valiant character Macbeth is. If you look at the beginning of the play, Macbeth's appears to be an honest member of society. But as his character changes because of jealousy towards the throne, we see his value shift, causing a contradiction between the darker Macbeth and the Macbeth at the beginning. But then Macbeth begins to doubt the ideas that caused him to change. Only through the persuasive ways of Lady Macbeth does he change is ideas, once again, and continue on his plot to murder the king.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Zach's question:
From Act 1 Sc. 7 line 62-65 we see that Lady Macbeth once had a child but is no longer a mother. Perhaps she lost the child and is no longer able to conceive? Perhaps the guilt from the first loss has caused the couple to become unable to have another child.
Ashley, I agree with everything you said-- go figure. But I truly see what you are saying. Women seem to always have control over situations while the men pretend to. In relationships, the woman always makes the final decision and the men act as though they are the ones with power. I wonder why that is. What is it about a woman that is so compelling?
ReplyDeleteAshley and Caitlin, I definitley agree with your points and I must say that Caitlin's question is one that the guys must answer.
ReplyDeleteI also like Cameron's post about how he just needed characters. Shakespeare could have just used those names just so some might have some knowledge of the characters.
That is a good question Caitlin. Men tend to always need a woman in their life, whether it is for a night or for the rest of their existence. Men act like they have the power in the relationship, because they feel like they need to “wear the pants in the relationship” and be “manly”. In reality, however, women usually always play mind games with men, and inevitably make all the decisions. You see this also with how men and women deal with situations, guys let out all their frustration by hitting and yelling, while women get back at someone by emotionally hurting them.
ReplyDeleteI think that Julie and Caitlin's comments have a part in them that I definitely don't agree with. A bit harsh.
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, I'm going to have to agree with Willy that Shakespeare probably didn't choose Lady Macbeth's for any more of a reason than he chose his other characters. I said this in a comment to a previous post, but I'll say it again. I think we are made up of everything that happens to us. We are the individual experiences and influences that make up our lives. That is why I believe Shakespeare chose these characters to be a part of this play, because they were influences in his life.
So the last few comments seem to have focused on how Shakespeare was making a point about how manipulative women are. Do you think he saw this as a positive thing (that women held more power than most would admit) or a negative thing (that women are troublemakers)? I think that he viewed it more as a negative simply because of the way the witches are portrayed.
ReplyDeleteI think you ask a very good question, Cameron. I agree with you on that. I think Shakespeare viewed them negatively. The wtiches are a good example but Lady Macbeth is as well. She is kniving and sneaky. She is portrayed very negatively and I think that is a reflection of Shakespeare's perspective on the behavior of women. I just wonder where he got such a negative view of women.
ReplyDeleteI dont think that there where many similarities between the to women's charcteristics. I did find it interesting, however, that both women did not have a child with Macbeth. In the play though Lady Macbeth mentions something about being a mother. So one can infer that she had had a child with another man like Queen Gruoch. So maybe there are more similarities than we think between the two of them, but they are just not listed.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Cameron's question, I think it is possible that Shakespeare used Lady Macbeth to show that women had more influence and control than most would like to think, but back then I dont think that would have been a positive thing. Because men back then held the higher positions and looked to women as though they were inferior, I dont think they would have liked to have been told that women were equal to them or some times suuperior. And as for the witches, they had beards. So i think the beards can be a symbol saying something like women are at the same level as the men. Like when I think of beards, I think only men can grow them, but the witches in the play have them. So its like saying back then, only men have higher positions in society, but then when the witches have the beards, its saying that women can be of a higher society too.
ReplyDeleteAshley, your post regarding the male power structure and women's inclusion in it was very interesting. Men obviously make the conscious decision that women are lower than themselves (at least they used to), as it appears to be with the witches. Their demeanor (bowing to Macbeth, and praising him) coincides with this viewpoint. However, looking back on the play from this day and age, does it still appear that the witches are of lower status than Macbeth, or even Duncan? I would say that while they do not fit in any level of the structure, everyone's caution/fear/curiousity of them places them above the entire structure as to who has the most power. Even today women might argue that the effort men subconsciously make to stay above women is actually what raises women above them.
ReplyDeleteThen the conversation took a sharp and painful turn into the oblivion of sexist assumption. Caitlin, you ask what it is about a woman that makes them so compelling. I think this question in itself takes too much for granted. As to men pretending while "women usually always play mind games with men, and inevitably make all the decisions," I do not think that one sex is any better at this than the other. In any functional relationship, both members make a somewhat equal amount of decisions, leaning slightly towards the more dominant personality of the two. It is morbidly sexist in itself to refute the statement made by sexist men with the opposite claim.
Perhaps Shakespeare's underlying theme in Macbeth surpasses sexism. It is true that both the witches and Lady Macbeth are portrayed in less than stellar light, but isn't Macbeth standing beside them under the lamp? Multiple male characters we've encountered so far have flawed personalities, with Macbeth initially appearing the most pure. This hero of the people is loved by all, including the king, for his honesty and loyalty. Then his inner workings are revealed.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Shakespeare was attempting to convey the inherent disease that infects all humans; the neverending climb to the top. Rather than be satisfied with his clean conscious and notable stature, he is willing to discard all morals (it is made clear several times that he has morals) to climb one rung higher.
This "disease" has, if not increased in potency, definitely not dilluted either. Is this an anavoidable trait, and if not, why have we learned nothing from those who have attempted to teach us (including shakespeare through Macbeth)?
So the men we've encountered in this play have flawed personalizes, as Mark said, does that mean the women are there to complete what they lack? Like I mentioned before, Lady Macbeth having the courage Macbeth needs. And commenting on what willy said maybe women sway them because, like in life, their women complete them and fill in the holes in their personalities or improve them a little in areas. The men so easily listen to them, possibly because of wanting what they don't have, they could be envious of a certain trait of their significant other. Which makes them gravitate towards what they say. Could it be envy not seduction that sways Macbeth more? Then again I almost think Macbeth is too simple a character to get this deep into things. I almost want to say he is Simply a happy, friendly guy who listens to all his wife says. But that could be a bit of a stretch.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to go with what most people said on this. That Shakespeare used Lady Grouch to get a starting point with Lady MacBeth, but he took his own twist on it and used it to what Emily said "Sway the honorable and valiant character Macbeth is" Giving the blame on a woman to protect the Noble character of MacBeth. In many ways at first they were the same, they were both kind and caring people (as we saw in act 1) but eventually she is given another side and the blame eventually goes to her.
ReplyDelete