Thought I would make it easier for us to discuss without having to scroll down previous posts/comments. I'm eager for us to continue the dialogue on gender roles, social constructionism, and patriarchy. So . . . after our discussion on Friday, what questions do you still have? What thoughts are still lingering in your mind? Were your thoughts about gender reinforced or altered? Was your perspective broadened in any way?
And for those sitting next to Mr. Bishop and Mrs. Parisi during the discussion--what was that like? I only ask because I was keeping track of those asking questions, and I noticed that some of you who are often outspoken were quiet (was there a blending of the Marxist and Gender lenses?)
Bishop and Mary O commented at the end of the gender post. Check it out! They were fast!
ReplyDeleteThis is just something I thought I would share on this blog. It's a quick little 'wow' moment for me. http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/beauty/h-m-s-new-collection-features-skirts-for-men-547
ReplyDeleteI saw this and I thought about what I had asked during the discussion in class. ( about boys in skirts) I don't see anything wrong with this. I am so upset by how narrow minded our society is. I really wish we could see through the clothes and different body parts, and look at the person. Look at the wonderful way each person around us, is in my opinion a gift from god. This just made me realize it is every where. ( By "it" I mean what society chooses each gender should be like.)
I agree with Merissa that boys should be allowed to where what they want. It is someone’s decision to where what they want, and if it follows the dress code, then why should it matter? It is just like a student dying their hair a crazy color like hot pink or neon green. That is out of the ordinary like the man skirt, and that could distract students and make them talk, however people are still allowed to do it.
ReplyDeleteAlso who decided that a skirt was only for girls, and who decided that dolls were for girls, and toy trucks were for boys, and why? Even though they are set into a gender category, both girls and boys play with them. And then if a boy plays with girl stuff he could made fun of by friends or scolded by their dads.
Has anyone ever worked in a place or have been in a place where they were viewed unequally because of their gender?
Society has a great influence upon us, but we are greatly, greatly influenced by our parents. We grow up going by what they say and do. Tuesdays discussion was awesome, it was great to hear from two different points of views. I realized just how much our family helps us grow up to who we are and who we will be. Not also are we the same as our own parents but if we see something they do we don't like we make note of it and will change to not be or to not do whatever it is they did. Just how Mr. Bishop wasn't going to be like his father was to him, or how Mrs. Parisi decided she wasn't going to be like her mom she was going to succeed. It was wonderful hearing the input, but I had a question I would love to know.
ReplyDeleteDo students, males and females, treat you differently? For example does a female treat you differently than a male would? What about parents? (to both Mr. Bishop and Mrs. Parisi)
In answer to Shayna's question i actually have worked in a place where i was treated unequally because i was a girl. I was told to my face i couldn't be trained in that area because i was a girl, and girls don't work back there, even though they really needed people to work in that area, and i was more that capable of doing it. It really sucked. Ontop of that i was one of the 7 girls who worked there and we were given nicknames by our coworkers based on what they believed was our best physical attribute. And its not like our managers did anything about it. our one female supervisor would stop it when she was around but the other 4 male managers would laugh and join in. they thought it was hillarious. It just really sucked to be treated like that and no one really did anything about what was going on.
ReplyDeleteCaitie brings up a good point. I know for sure that male students treat female students. I don't really know the best way to explain it, but i just know it happens and its just something you can kind of see everyday.
I found it really interesting when Mr. Bishop said, if he had a daughter, he wouldn't treat her with the same affection as he treats his boys.
ReplyDeleteTuesday my questions were asked by other people, but I have another one. Do you think administrators are more strict on their children because of their job? They punish people every day.. Also, Mr. Bishop said that he feels like he overpowers his wife because he's a principal and he has authority. I wonder if Mrs. Parisi is the same way in that she overpowers her husband. If so, how do you think her husband would feel, not being "the man of the house"?
Zach very interesting questions. And Mary my work isn't as bad but it is unfair. One of our male managers treats female employees like they are stupid, if we do one thing wrong its the end of the world. He talks to us like little kids, but when it comes to our male employees my manager is all buddy buddy. He lets all the guys go on break before the girls he doesn't mix it up. Very unfair.
ReplyDeleteZach I found it interesting too that Mr. Bishop wouldn't treat his duaghter with as much affection as his sons. I am not really a daddys girls, when I was younger I played with him, but I have two older brother and my dad mostly played with them. I played by myself a lot, if I did play with my dad we played video games. My dad grew up with 6 brothers and 5 sisters, so looking at his family he had brothers and sisters to rely on. I guess I'm stressing my family has a great influence on us because my dads childhood was different than mine he raised me differently.
I think Caitie makes a great point when she said, "Society has a great influence upon us, but we are greatly, greatly influenced by our parents." I agree with her in that our childhood and family influences the person we become. After hearing both Mr. Bishop's and Mrs. Parisi's background of their parents I understood a little better why they are the way they are, especially Mrs. Parisi. The women in her family have been strong and I believe that has influenced her greatly.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Shayna's question I have to say I have been in a situation where I was viewed differently because of my gender. In most of the symphonies I have been involved with, females have always been seen as the weaker player. It's so frustrating when you are placed at a lower seat because of your gender (which I've witnessed) and not your talent. Last year I was the only female violist in a symphony with 6 other male violists! That situation definetly opened my eyes and I believe it affected the others aswell.
Here's a question that makes me wonder- does anyone experience gender role issues with their opposite gender siblings?
To answer Emily's question, I think that there are role issues with gender siblings. I do not have any brothers, but I have many male cousins that I am around often. Usually when we were younger and we got together for family things my cousins would always get in trouble before I did. Even if we were doing the same things, I think because they were boys, they were held to a higher responsibility level. We are about the same age too, so I believe that it was because they were boys.
ReplyDeleteI also think our parents are influenced by their parents by the way they raise us. My mom was raised by a mother who was always too busy working and going to school to pay attention to her. Now, my mother doesn’t want me to have the same life she did, so she tries to pay most of her attention to me, and give me the support that she never got from her parents.
In answer to emily's question, i don't really experience much with opposite gender siblings. Its more of the same sex with me. My brother and i are too alike in mentalities and personalities to really fight, however my sister is of the thought that women should be the ones out earning money and really making a name for themselves and not relying on men. And we but heads all the time, because we just think differently and have different priorities. I guess that mostly answers Emily's question.
ReplyDeleteWe kind of touched on this the other day in our discussion but i'm just curious if anyone really has the same mentalities about gender as their parents. Or has the way their parents viewed things different than theirs. i really just am curious as to how much of an impact their parents beliefs about gender have impacted them.
To answer Zach's question, you'd have to be a certain kind of man (not speaking negatively at all) to marry a woman like Mrs. Parisi. She had an established position before she got married and has an authoritative job, she was raised to be motivated and ambitious and to strive to provide for herself so she would never have to be dependent on a man. I think her husband is fine with that, if he had a problem with a powerful woman, they wouldn't have gotten married. (although we never asked what he did, did we? If we did, I can't remember) To go further, Mr. Bishop said his wife feels overpowered by him at times, how do you think Mrs. Parisi's husband feels with a somewhat reversed gender role household? (we already know what her neighbors think)
ReplyDelete**Mrs. Parisi's husband is a college wrestling coach (Lindenwood) and dean of admissions**
ReplyDeletePerhaps this is unique, but I actually admire a woman who is independent of me. Women who are strong enough, smart enough, and sure enough in themselves to keep up with my lifestyle. In response to Mary O's question however, my father doesn't admire the same attributes I do in a woman. He isn't especially fond of the fact that my stepmom works, and feels as if he has failed me, his son, because of his inability to provide me with the "finer things." His wife should maintain the household, and cook the dinner; she should be home all day, and still not have time to nap for all of her other duties. If you're with me, and we as a family need money, I expect you to feel obligated to aid financially in some way. A woman who can watch her man fall, and wonder why he can't get up isn't the girl for me.
I agree to an extent of what previous people have said that we learn from our parents. I believe this to a point, but as Mark pointed out he doesn’t regard women the same way his father does. This is, in my belief, because we are influenced by society now a day’s more. Our generation is moving forward and is becoming way more accepting of people, than what it was in the past. Women starting to have jobs are still considered something “new”, but our generation doesn’t view it as odd, in fact I think it is considered normal.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Mary's question: I think i do share much of the same gender beliefs as my dad. Although I live in a traditional style family, (my mom stays at home, my dad works), it wasn't always this way, my mom used to work and occasionally looks for a job now. I think i could be happy in either relationship, but i do feel i'd be more comfortable as a provider.
ReplyDeleteAS far as sibling rivalry goes, I don't have any problems with my opposite gender sibling. However when I do hear of sibling rivalry from friends its almost always between sisters.
Hi Everyone. I hope all of you had a good Thanksgiving and break. It was nice to get away and spend some time with family. Your posts have been interesting to read. I think some of what I said either came out wrong or was misinterepted so I apologize ahead of time for my soon to be lengthy post.
ReplyDeleteFirst in response to Caitie, I have not experienced much of a difference in the way parents treat me. Students however, are different. As was mentioned in class I think alot of times female students feel uncomfortable discussing certain topics with me because I am a male and would just not understand.
In response to Zach's post...first the thought that I would not show a daughter the same affection as my sons. I think there was a question about would I treat a daughter any different than I treated my sons. The answer is I would hope that I would treat them the same, but there is a part of me that thinks it would be difficult not to show more affection or be more protective of her. Yes I know the whole Daddy's little girl syndrome.
The other portion of Zach's post which I would like to elaborate on is the notion that my wife feels overpowered by me. I do not know that overpowered would be the best way to describe what I was trying to say and I know that is the term that I used. I think that there are times when I feel strongly about an issue and she then just goes along with me. With that being said, typically we make decisions together and do everything as a team.
There are a number of other great thoughts posted on here. As far as work and being treated unequally because of gender, I have not personally experienced that. Although I did experience being treated differently and sometimes unfairly based on age. Also while in college I do believe I was treated with prejudice by a professor who did not like my comments on a topic which she was discussing and used that against me when issuing a grade.
You all truly have great insight and I am glad that I had the opportunity to share some of my personal thoughts and experiences on this topic. Hopefully, we can work out a time for Mrs. Parisi and I to return to your class and continue our discussion.
Yes, actually... When I applied to Texas Roadhouse, my intention was to become a host at the front desk. (this position was at that point only held by women.) The head manager told me that there were no spots to fill at that position, but I could become a busboy. The following week he hired to attractive females at my desired position, as well as several more during my term, including a guy! This man is however much smaller and more umm... fragile than myself, which I can only assume gave him an advantage that I had not. Alas, discrimination at its finest.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the post, One of my questions that I forgot to mention, was towards Ms. Parisi, asking if her definition of a man altered from Mr. Bishop's because of their drastically different pasts?
ReplyDeleteI believe that having them in the class room definitly brought a different atmosphere. I feel like it was a shocker to everyone to seem them conversate the way they did. I did enjoy how they had such honest responses with us, and didnt seem to hold back. They got really personal, and I felt like it was easier to ask our questions because of that.
In response to Mark's post, I think thats absolutley ridiculous how he gave two girls your position. I dont personally have any discrimination in the workplace to share, but I see that Mark's experience is a perfect example.
In response to Mary's question, I believe that my parents have influenced my perception of the gender roles greatly. My mother is a single woman and has been for pretty much my entire life. She has raised me (much like Mrs. Parisi's mother raised her) to provide for myself and never rely on a man to make me happy. Marriage is not a necessity--it's more of a perk. I felt like Mrs. Parisi stole the thought from my mind when she said she always wanted a man that would "go toe-to-toe" with her. I have found that a boy who is not willing to stand up to me is not someone I want to spend my time with. Maybe this is also something that my mother has somehow instilled in my head.
ReplyDeleteI also have taken a look around my workplace through the gender lens. As a party entertainer, most of my coworkers are female. I have also observed that the two males that work in our department were cheerleaders in highschool--which is considered feminine by many. Plus, the company was open for nearly a year before any men were placed in the position. I feel like gender roles are playing a big part in the hiring of the party entertainers.
jumping back on zachs comment and adding to mr. b. i think that he was right to say tht, although hewould hope to treat his daughter the same way as his sons (if he had a daughter) but he already knows he wouldnt. i find it interesting that he already assumes that. i know though that when my father had my little sister he definitly lightened up from before. especially the punishment that she gets noe compared to what i recieved when i was her age.
ReplyDeleteTo answer you Cameron, I think people began to break away because they knew they could do something about it. You see commercials on TV all the time about changing the environment and how everyone can help. I think it is sort of the same thing. People no matter what age know when they are being wronged most of the time. It is a lot more common today because everyone wants to stand out and be somebody.
ReplyDeleteHi everyone and thank you again for the invitation to this discussion. I first want to comment on how amazing each of your prespectives on this topic are. It is remarkable the insight that you all have at this age. I never thought about my role as a female in society while I was in high school.
ReplyDeleteTo comment on Caitie Moore's blog-I do not feel that students treat me differently than the other administrators. I think that female students tend to open up a little more to me at first but the boys come around. I will say that I do have some male students that will only talk to me. If they get sent out of a class room, they don't want to talk to Mrs. Osborn or another administrator, so I again do not feel its due to gender, just comfort knowing that someone will truly listen to your problems. I also feel that most parents come in with an issue pertaining to their child it doesn't matter if the person that they are airing their frustrations to is male or female. They are only concerned with whether or not the issue will get resolved and in a way or on terms that they can live with. I have however in the past had a few Dad's that wanted to talk down to me, but once we both talk through the issue, it didn't matter.
Zach Rootz-I know you had concerns as to whether or not I overpower my husband. This is TOTALLY not the case. I again want to stress that I got married late and found a partner that is what I would call an "equal". We share everything-expenses, responsibilitie, etc. I do not believe that reverse gender roles even apply to us. We both knew what each other was passionate about when we met and we both respect that about one another still.
"A certain amount of gender gap might be a natural artifact of a free society." Thank you. The next time I hear a woman complain about how women don't hold those positions (probably using the excuse "men don't think we're smart enough) I'm going to ask her if she would want to be in that position (science and mathematic involved work). If she says no, which she more than likely would, according to that study, I'm going to pull that quote out. That's so right, I do believe.
ReplyDeleteI find it awesome and inspiring what Mrs. Parisi said about marrying later and how she found a partner that she considers to be equal with. Our society has come a long way in the terms of accepting and appreciating each other as individuals, who all want to obtain a goal in life. Someone’s goal and life’s ambition should not be put on hold just because the norms say you have to stay at home and raise a child. If that is some people’s goal, that is great, but for most they want to prove themselves in life. I find it immensely grateful that women now have the opportunity to take part in fulfilling their life destiny.
ReplyDeleteI want to comment on something Emily talked about a while ago. She said she was in a musical group with all males. I can definitely relate to this. Over the summer, I was selected to go to a music conference as a composer. 200 people from the US, Canada, and Ireland were admitted to the conference and only 6 of us were selected as composers. I was the only female. I was very hesitant at first to critic the others, but then the conference had the boys attend one meeting and the girls attend another. In the all girls meeting, the leader asked me to stand up and talk about how it felt to be the only female composer and what that's like. It was the first time I really had to think about it. I was intimidated. Whether it was because they were boys, because I felt inferior as a musician, or maybe both I still don't know. It was nice to be uplifted with applause from my fellow females for this achievement and I am really glad that I have this experience to share during the gender lens discussion since I so often feel disconnected from it. After that meeting, I was more outspoken when I met with the other composers and reflecting back I think having that support behind me really helped (though, I don't know if it was just because it was support or because it was support from my sisters or both).
ReplyDeleteMrs. Parisi--thank you for sharing so much about your marriage with us. I find it very admirable that you waited so long to find someone who could truly be your equal. It's a really beautiful thing to witness, especially when many of us come from families with parents who aren't as awesome about each other.
ReplyDeleteSomething Mr. Bishop said in class really stuck out to me. I've been struggling this whole time with the gender lens and feeling left out when we talk about girl power. Mrs. P was talking about how she stepped up her game and was assertive entering male domain. Mr. B responded by saying that even though she did that, she never really had to. I think that I feel as though I don't have to bond with my sisters or be assertive toward males because I know myself. However, I don't know myself in terms of male/female, inferior/superior, etc. I just step into a situation as is and I don't feel like in today's society too many people are going to want to change that. Even if they do, I don't think I really take notice or I subconsciously blow it off. I really felt good to hear Mr. B say that, though, because I felt like finally someone put into words and really understood where I'm at. Thanks for that Mr. B!